Self-fulfilling Ideology

It would be easy to turn conservative cheerleader with John Stossel's 20/20 report. The report indicates that, in general, conservatives give more to charity than liberals. However, in light of exchanges on this blog regarding the minimum wage and the plight of the poor, I'm more inclined to say people act in accordance with their ideology. Conservatives—real conservatives, not the latest DC "conservatives"—believe the poor can be cared for in the private sector and the less money the government takes, the better. Therefore, in general, conservatives are more inclined to give to charity. Liberals doubt the private sector can handle the burden and seek the power of government to solve the problem. In general, then, they give less to charity.

Obviously, there are exceptions on either side. The point is that ideology is a significant factor in general social behavior. The problem is, when the ideology that favors government intervention grows in popularity, charitable giving declines. The Left's lack of confidence in the private sector grows as it grows. It's critique of the free-market has a hint of self-fulfilling prophecy about it: the more people who believe the critique, the weaker the market's ability to handle problems.

This problem is exacerbated in that the more we give to the government for its social welfare programs, the less private citizens have to give to charity. The problem crashes against the rocks of economic reality when we consider that the challenges of poverty are too complex for centralized, bureaucratic regulators to solve. Socialized welfare programs are weakening social charity and draining valuable resources that could be used for effective care of the poor. No one is going to eliminate poverty, but the private sector can do a much better job in aiding the most needy.

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John Stossel is a shill

Ok, before we get to the heart of the matter, can we first agree that John Stossel is a shill for the "conservative" press? I mean, he's written some completely assanine books, that don't stand up to any sort of scrutiny. He's part of the conservative press that churns out books saying what people want to hear like Coulter, O'Reilly, etc.

Now, the author claims to be an independent, but has written 13 op-eds for the conservative Wall Street Journal over the last year and half. Here's one that says liberals are in trouble because they don't have enough babies.

His book is being published by what appears to be a conservative publisher, based upon the books on their front page.

All that to say that it is no surprise that he finds conservatives as bigger (and therefore better) givers.

I'd be interested in seeing the actual figures. The only thing I can get from the ABC report is "Of the top 25 states where people give an above average percent of their income, 24 were red states in the last presidential election." I'm not sure what that means. Is that top 25 in giving? population? income?

I wonder where George Soros fits in all this. He is clearly a Democrat (socially liberal, fiscally conservative) and he's given away billions. Does that help the cause or is he excluded because his gift is so beyond the means of average citizens?

Argue at the data, not at the man

Expat, I really did try to mitigate the contentious impact of this study and I'm sorry it did not prevent you from reacting this way. Very little in this response rises above ad hominem abusive.

Re: your suspicions of the data.
I think you need to produce positive counter-evidence to be effective.

Re: George Soros.
You did read the first sentence of the the second paragraph I wrote, or didn't you?

One person at a time.

Marc,

Stunning reply. Standing ovation. I am pretty conservative these days, but my work in law forces me to address Civil Rights issues and I am deeply committed to volunteer work which aids those in need.

My favorite quote of yours: ". . . the challenges of poverty are too complex for centralized, bureaucratic regulators to solve."

So very true my friend. We can not depend on leaders to solve our problems. We must reach out our hands to our brothers and sisters.

There are so many brilliant organizations aiding challenged groups and providing wonderful resources and alternatives to lives of poverty and crime. I have done an awful lot of work in criminal defense and am driven to become involved in secure and reputable programs that provide alternatives to lives of poverty. My heart aches for those in prison and there are so many wonderful prison fellowship programs available for people to become involved in. I ache for those who hunger, and there are so many opportunities for people to give just a small sum, and yet we refuse.

Mother Teresa is a wonderful role model as is Sister Helen Prejean. A favorite quote of mine by Mother Teresa: "Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person".

One small step at a time leads to valuable and important change.

Blessings, my friend.

Sara

For Actual Data

Don't know whether Stossel mentioned this book in his report or not, but it seems to provide the data that you're asking for: http://www.amazon.com/Who-Really-Cares-Compassionate-Conservatism/dp/0465008216/sr=1-1/qid=1166547206/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-7741076-5002350?ie=UTF8&s=books

Reason posted a review of it today, which you can find here: http://www.reason.com/news/show/117303.html

The book claims that conservatives of all income levels significantly outgive liberal counterparts.

Banging my head against the wall

Marc-

I realized I didn't take on the actual meat of the post. My bad.

We've been around and around on this, but you've made this claim again and I need to call you on it.

No one is going to eliminate poverty, but the private sector can do a much better job in aiding the most needy.

Please list 4 ways that it will do so.

The more we talk about this, the more I wonder if you knew what life was like for the poor during the Gilded Age, when a laissez-faire philosophy about the free market reigned. Here is one example from Wikipedia.

What a difference a half century makes

I have enough familiarity with 19th century American history to know that the period to which you refer is after the war between the states and that Tocqueville was writing about America in the first half of the century.

The market was freer in the last half of the 19th than it is now, but many of the origins of our economic problems had already begun to flower. I recommend reading Murray Rothbard's Origins of the Welfare State in America.

As far as listing the ways in which the church and philanthropic organizations help the poor, I don't at all understand what you're going on about. It is so obvious what churches and philanthropic organizations do that I must be failing to catch your meaning.

No...My Bad

I realized I didn't take on the actual meat of the post. My bad.

I just realized you had corrected yourself on the ad hominem attacks in your first comment. Sorry, I usually read and comment on these threads one post at a time and not always in order.

Ad Hominem

Hm. Ad Hominem attacks? A major falacy in logic. lol at "my bad". You go, Marc-y Marc!

Just a smile in the midst of chaos, friend.

Sara

The private sector can

The private sector can provide the same services as the public sector, and do so at a lower cost and with more personal attention. Churches and private charities can do anything that a government agency can do and churches and private charities are always more efficient than large government beauracracies. To be fair, local governments, such as city and municipalities do a decent job delivering services to the poor and certainly do better than federal programs that can't take into account local needs and culture.

UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL

Bravo

Bravo. See my quote of Mother Teresa in other posts.

We must not depend on others to save us. We must take action and do what we can, in whatever small way available to us, with the resources we have. At any time, we may exchange places with those we deem less fortunate than us. We must treat those less fortunate with dignity and respect.

Awesome response!

Blessings & peace,

Sara

Organizing a Union

I appreciate your candor.

If I can be so bold, I'd like to offer a hypothetical situation and see how you'd make this happen with churches and private charities.

Workers at a local big-box retailer want to organize a labor union. The big-box retailer doesn't want the employees to do so because it would drive up costs. The big-box retailer consistently has prices 10-15% lower than in other retailers around town and threaten to close the store should a union organize. The big-box retailer starts firing anyone associated with the union organization effort.

What is the role of the churches and/or private charities? What should/could they do? How is this better than government involvement?

The Role of the Church in Your Hypothetical Situation

Let's just assume that there's something wrong with an entrepreneurial employer stipulating the terms of employment at his place of business and that other entrepreneurs in the area wouldn't happily offer a higher wage in order to drain the labor from their big box competitor and run him out of business.

Likewise, let's just forget that despite offering lower wages, the big box entrepreneur is also offering lower prices for a lower income community.

Let's just assume the market simply fails, for mysterious reasons, to move toward a balance of relative prices in labor, goods, land, and capital.

These are all grandiose assumptions, but let's allow them for the sake of your hypothetical situation.

The Church, then, should admonish its congregations. If the big box entrepreneur is a member of the church, the elders should proceed with discipline. If the big box customers are in the congregation, they should be admonished to boycott. The deacons should take a special collection for the impoverished families of the people who work for the big box retailer.

It's worth noting that the New England Puritans did take like-minded approaches to what I describe above. While I disagree with many Puritan policies, especially as they regard economics and political philosophy, they did stipulate a profit margin and there were cases of excommunication of businessmen who charged margins above their fixed percentage.

If I might chime in, I am

If I might chime in, I am somewhat sympathetic to Expat Teacher’s argument. Now, let me first clarify that I am a HUGE John Stossel fan, and embrace the fact that private enterprise most often is more efficient and effective in taking care of the needs of not only the poor, but most if not all of society’s problems. But I do also know and understand that humans are not perfect; and yes, even through the free market system and through voluntary charitable giving, not every human need is met. In my opinion, this is obvious within the whole debate on adoption of children. Many Christian conservatives are adamantly opposed to gay couples adopting children; yet, they fail to properly take action with an alternative. I hear the lip service that the children should be placed in traditional homes, and I would agree that this is most beneficial for children to have both a mother and a father. But what happens when the need is so great (which is it) that not enough traditional homes are available for the children? Is it best then to leave them in the states care? My wife spent many years as a child psychologist, interviewing and evaluating hundreds if not thousands of children in foster care and in group homes. These children were wards of the state, many seeking and wanting to be adopted. And there are very few takers. The emotional and physical damage on these children was/is enormous. And yes, many from private homes (both Christian and non) would see to adopt these kids. But the demand for such homes greatly out weighs the supply. So what do we do with these kids? I would listen to the O’Riley’s, Hannity’s, and Coulter’s of this world argue against gay adoption, but what is their alternative? Their alternative is to have the children remain in government care. It sounds pretty inconsistent with their argument that the church will step up to the plate. In my opinion, the church has failed the children. So the question remains and is still present, what happens when the free market indeed does not step up to the plate?

So the question remains and

So the question remains and is still present, what happens when the free market indeed does not step up to the plate?

What happens is that a convenient excuse is created for Statists to intervene in the market. However, this excuse is often predicated on a false utopianism that demands perfection (or some arbitrary standard of success) from the free market.

The problem is that the government can do no better and often creates worse economic deprivations. And, it exacerbates the inefficacy of the Church by taking away more income from its members and creating an it's-someone-else's-problem mentality.

Reach Out!

Hm.

The church is not without its faults. There are religions and churches who do more to promote dysfunction and abuse than any government agency. I just want to put that out there for thought.

That said, there are so many, many individuals and organizations (churches and private organizations) who help to create healing miracles for people every single day, without many funds and without help from the US Government. Corporations donate thousands and millions of dollars to promote education and medical healing for millions. Teachers find ways to reach students. Individuals find ways to help neighbors.

I guess my own experiences lead me to believe in the power of the individual to promote positive change. Do we need our government to create money-sucking agencies to heal our wounds? Wouldn't it be so much more efficient, and downright pleasant, for all of us to do one small thing to improve this world, to bless our universe with positive energy and love instead of simply sitting back and waiting for the "government" to take care of us? Isn't this the purpose of our lives? To create positive change, to take action, to help the healing process? Isn't this what Jesus taught us?

Think of all the great minds who promoted change. Were they always government minds? Sometimes they were mathemeticians who sat alone in dark attics, or poor saints who nurtured the poor in Calcutta, or Danish secretaries who helped hide the persecuted Jews in Nazi Germany. These were individuals who were powered with the love and energy of a God beyond our understanding.

Isn't this the gift God gave to us? The gift of Love and Compassion? The strength to reach out...individual to individual?

Just putting this out for your thoughts.

Blessings & peace,

Sara :)

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