Inside The Religious Right

Will Hinton's picture

I have decided to repost this article that I wrote almost exactly two years ago. As I had just started blogging when I wrote this, it is tempting to re-write and edit this piece. But I have decided to leave it as is. I'd love comments on this piece.

Faithful Progressive left me a very nice comment last week regarding a post I wrote about his characterization of the "Religious Right". I very much appreciate his desire for good dialogue rather than the typical stupid attacks back and forth that often happen with those of differing viewpoints. Fortunately we have a common bond as brothers in Christ that transcends any political viewpoints.

"Thank you for your thoughtful comments, I have posted them on my site. At some point I hope to answer them. "- FP

"I would also appreciate your thoughts on my continuing series on the Christian Right and the Enlightenment--there is no one bogeyman, but there are many Christian extremists on the right."- FP

FP wrote this post encouraging others to have this kind of dialogue.

I would like to give some perspective on the "Religious Right" for FP and any of his readers that might care. I have found that few people really understand the "Religious Right" or even try to.

I am sure that I am going to open myself up for some criticism of my past experiences but they are what they are and I want to be as honest as possible. I am probably as qualified as any to give an analysis of the "Religious Right".

I grew up in a Christian home in the South (although Atlanta is a tad different than much of the South). So I was immersed in the Christian "subculture" from an early age.

Robertson for President
Sometime in high school I become very interested in politics. This interest led me to start working on political campaigns and even attending schools on how to run campaigns. I ended up working on paid staff for Pat Robertson when he ran for president in 1988. Additionally, I worked for Congressman John Linder and former Congressman Pat Swindall, along with various local candidates.

Now that I have your attention with the mention of Robertson, let me give a perspective on that campaign. That campaign probably did more to bring evangelical Christians into politics than anything else in the past century. There were many discussions at that time as to whether Christians should be involved in politics at all. Most supporters and campaign workers were wonderful people who would be shocked to be called extremists. These people were valuable members of the community who probably volunteered in soup kitchens and homeless shelters far more than the average person.

The Robertson campaign had a huge effect on the Republican party that is still evident today. Prior to 1988, the Republican party was not particularly conservative on social issues. This all changed with the Robertson campaign using a grassroots effort to take over much of the Republican party apparatus at the local level. One of the results of this change isn't so much that the Republican party has become beholden to evangelicals, but that the tent is much wider now that it was pre-1988.

I also became very involved in the pro-life movement at this time. This involvement started by picketing local abortion clinics in Atlanta. Contrary to most impressions of picketing, I rarely if ever saw people yell or harass women going to these abortion clinics. We were usually silent and prayed. Many people that I knew in the pro-life movement felt strongly enough about their beliefs that they often adopted children.

Operation Rescue
Sometime in 1988, these two movements (the Robertson campaigns and the growing pro-life movement) started to attract people with more extreme ideas. I'm sure that some would say that Robertson himself was rather extreme but I will address that later. The biggest outgrowth of extremism was the arrival of Operation Rescue.

For those who don't remember (or are too young to remember), Operation Rescue was a pro-life group that felt that picketing wasn't accomplishing enough. Their goal was to physically block entrance into abortion clinics. Throughout the summer of 1988, Operation Rescue blocked access at many abortion clinics in Atlanta, resulting in the arrest of hundreds. These protests made national news and heightened tensions around an already polarized issue.

I ended up becoming quite involved in Operation Rescue to the point that the primary leaders of the organization lived with my family for most of the summer. I was at most of the protests in Atlanta, though at my parents request, I never actively participated to the point of being arrested. Regardless of your opinion on the issue, you can imagine how exciting all of this was to a teenager.

"Possession of Christian material"
The third event that put me deep into the "Religious Right" was a strange little episode my senior year in high school. To make a long story short, I was involved in a group called Fellowship of Christian Athletes. My brother and one of my best friends were suspended from school and I was threatened with expulsion for "possession of Christian material" at school. I know this sounds ridiculous, but those are the exact words that the assistant principal at my school wrote on the discipline note.

By chance, we happened to go to the same church as renowed Christian attorney, Jay Sekulow. I hate even including Jay in this discussion, because Jay is one of the nicest people I know and the furthest thing from an extremist. At the time Jay was proceeding with a similar case that went before the Supreme Court (the Mergens case) but he was very interested in our case. The resulting media storm was unbelievable (and quite fun to be quite honest). Within a short time of this incident, our story was being told on the 700 Club on a daily basis. Shortly after, our family was flown to California to be on Jay's television program broadcast by TBN.

Christian Coalition
The culimination of this event involved my brother and I being invited to be the keynote speakers at the very first meeting of the Christian Coalition in Washington DC. The list of people in attendance that day would be like the 1990 version of the Time's list of 25 influential evangelicals that just came out. The list included Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Chuck Colson, Ralph Reed, Gary Bauer, D. James Kennedy, Charles Stanley, James Dobson, and I'm sure a few others I forgot. Not only did I speak to this group, but I got to sit down and chat with each of them over lunch. Pretty amazing for a high school senior. Over the years I kept in touch with some of these people, including Gary Bauer who gave me financial support for a missions trip.

Off to college
Shortly after these events, I graduated from high school and headed off for college. I had decided years before that I was going to study political science, go to law school, become an attorney, and then become a Congressman. Things started off well. I was even elected president of College Republicans my freshman year. But then a funny thing happened.

I started listening to God.

I started realizing that laws do not change people's hearts. Probably the biggest realization I had involved the issue of abortion. I started understanding that even if the pro-life movement got their wish of making abortion illegal, abortions would still happen. I realized that the only way that there would be less abortions would be for people's hearts and minds to change.

I realized that politics could not heal this world of evil. As a result, I swore off politics completely.

Mea Culpa
Even though I have not been actively involved in politics for almost 15 years, I have given a lot of thought as to how Christians should or should not involve themselves in politics. Looking back, I am quite embarassed about many of the groups I was involved in. I would never in a million years endorse the actions of an extremist group like Operation Rescue again. I think that it could easily be argued that Operation Rescue and some of its affiliated groups are domestic terrorists. Fortunately, most of the pro-life movement has rejected Operation Rescue. I also have very little in common politically with someone like Pat Robertson.

Many of the "leaders" of the "Religious Right" do indeed hold rather extreme views. I put leaders in quotes because I really question how many evangelical Christians view these people in the same light as they once did. Many Christians I know wince at the mention of Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson. When I hear someone like Jerry Falwell say that Tinky Winky is gay, I am concerned that instead of being "fools for Christ", sometimes we are simply fools.

I personally feel that this is a theological problem caused by years of preaching moralism as opposed to the Gospel. My life is a perfect example. I used to think that I had to do the right things (don't drink, don't smoke, don't have premarital sex, go to church every Sunday, etc) in order to have God's approval. I have realized over time that this view is the antithesis of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and that nothing I ever do will cause God to love me any more than He already does.

Current Landscape
My church is probably a good example of how there isn't a "Religious Right" monolith. My church would certainly be considered theologically conservative. We believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation. However, our pastor often talks about our church being "purple". There are certainly plenty of members who tend to vote Republican. Yet there are also many Democrats, including someone who works for the state Democratic party. As far as I can remember, our pastor has rarely mentioned abortion, never talks about homosexuality, and refrains from talking politics from the pulpit. Many people in our chuch volunteer weekly at area soup kitchens and some members have moved into the inner city to help low-income families. We have also had Sunday School lessons on the environment and how Christians have a responsibility to be good stewards of the earth. My church is not an exception either.

I also think that the "Religious Right" as some know it is on the decline for a number of reasons. I think that much of the movement has been led by Baby Boomers and older that have a nostalgia for a golden age that wasn't. As a new generation of evangelicals moves into positions of influence, this vision is slowly fading away. Most evangelicals I know under 40 (and some over) recognize that America is not God's favored nation and that government is not the way to bring about God's Kingdom on earth.

People often point to the theonomy movement as proof that evangelicals want to impose Christianity upon all of America. However, most evangelicals have pretty major differences with the theology of theonimists such as R.J. Rushdoony, Gary North, or Greg Bahnson and view them as very much on the fringe. I would argue that the theonomist have little if any influence upon politics in America or evangelicals as a whole.

Personally, I have some pretty major differences from what would be viewed as the Religious Right political agenda:

  • I am opposed to prayer in schools. I can also guarantee that if there were prayers in school, it wouldn't be a prayer I would agree with.
  • I am somewhere between ambivalent and opposed to the Federal Marriage Amendment
  • I am opposed to efforts to ban smoking.
  • I am very interested in protecting the welfare of animals.
  • I am opposed to bans on shipping alcohol across state lines.

Conclusion
I'm certainly not the only Christian with conservative political leanings who differs from the "Religious Right" platform. Most of my Christian friends feel similarly on these issues.

When I was younger I would have argued vehemently that various conservative ideals were TRUE. Now I believe them to be true. Catch the difference. I would die for the fact that Jesus truly died and was resurrected. However, I am open to the possibility that I am wrong about political issues.

I'm sure that many will be disappointed that I didn't share more "dirt" or make this account "sexier". Even though I believe many of the leaders of the "Religious Right" to be wrong about many political issues, I will not impugn their characters or doubt their motives. I have certainly been wrong about many things in my life and I'm sure I will continue to be so. I am starting to embrace this lessening of certainty by looking to God.

I'm hoping that this post will do a bit to dispell some of the common misconceptions of the "Religious Right". I'm tired of reading such misinformed crazy talk about the "Religious Right".

I welcome any and all comments and dialog.

The original comments for this post can be found here.

I wrote the following to answer some of the questions that people have had about this article.

Answering the questions: "Inside the Religious Right"

Little did I know when I wrote this article that people would still be reading and commenting about it a month later. Considering the provocative issues that I discussed, I gave little thought to the reaction that others would have to this article. My main concern was being as open and honest as possible. With one minor exception, I haven't been attacked for what I said in this article.

However, this article did raise some questions that I have decided to address. I would often prefer my articles to speak for themselves, but at the same time I don't want to be perceived as avoiding tough questions. My readers are honest and open and expect the same from me.

I also want to make sure that I have been fair to those that I mention in my writing. Some have objected to my mention of individuals in the same article as extremists. I didn't think that I had to say that Rep. John Linder or former Rep. Pat Swindall are in no way extremists in either action or words. Now I have.

Question: Isn't it a little much to use the word "terrorism" in conjunction with Operation Rescue?

Answer: This question has been asked of me in comments, in emails, and even in phone conversations with people who read the article. I agree that one should be very careful in the words they use, particularly ones so fraught with emotion. I'd like to give some additional details as to why I used the term "terrorism".

Let me first say that the vast majority of people involved in Operation Rescue were very peaceful, law-abiding citizens who would most likely feel guilty about receiving a parking ticket. The same could be said about most of the leaders. This may seem a strange statement to make of people involved in protests of this nature. However, during the Operation Rescue protests, the people I observed sat quietly, prayed, and were very respectful of the police officers who came to arrest them. I will not take the time to go into full detail as to why I think many of the efforts of Operation Rescue were misguided and even counter-productive; many others have written about this much better than I could.

While most people involved in Operation Rescue were peaceful, there were some who were not, most notably Jim Kopp, who also went by the moniker Atomic Dog. I met and got to know Jim very well during the summer of 1988 in Atlanta. Jim was a quiet guy and seemed rather mischievous. He would occasionally joke with me about blowing up abortion clinics. I didn't think much of it as I thought he was trying to impress me. (though I'm not sure why anyone would be impressed by such statements).

Unfortunately, Jim was not all talk. In 1998, Jim shot and killed Dr. Barnett Slepian in Buffalo, New York. Subsequently, Jim was on the run from authorities for a number of years. During this time, Jim was on the FBI's most wanted list. Jim was finally caught in France and extradited to the United States, where he confessed to the killing of Dr. Slepian in 2003.

Shelley Shannon was another involved in Operation Rescue who resorted to violence. Shannon set fire to multiple abortion clinics in 1992 and in 1993 she shot Dr. George Tiller in Kansas.

If killing people and burning buildings to further a political agenda doesn't qualify as domestic terrorism, I'm not sure what does.

One domestic terrorist group that was born out of the 1988 protests in Atlanta was the Army of God. A rather ironic name considering the evil intentions of this group. Certainly one can argue that the forming of the Army of God was an unintentional consequence of the protests in 1988. Nevertheless, the idea that Christians can and should break the law to stop abortion gained prominence because of the actions of Operation Rescue.

While Operation Rescue leaders such as Randall Terry and Joseph Foreman spoke out against violence, much of the rhetoric at Operation Rescue meetings attracted people with extreme beliefs. While I would never charge the leaders of Operation Rescue that I have met with being terrorists, I do believe that their rhetoric gave some justification to the more extreme measures taken by Jim Kopp and Shelley Shannon, among others.

Pastor Jeff Myers gives a very good summary of his concerns with groups like Operation Rescue in this paper that I recommend for those interested.

Question: Why do you seem to turn your back on politics in your statement, ‘I realized that politics could not heal this world of evil. As a result, I swore off politics completely’?

Answer: I suppose I wasn't clear in this statement. This statement describes where I was at that particular time in college. In a lot of ways, I have come full circle in my views as to how Christians should be involved in politics. By saying full circle, I mean that my views as a Christian should most certainly inform my voting and political involvement. But I don't think that the issues are so black and white as I once thought. Maybe a better way of putting it is that I am less confident that I can know the truth as I once thought.

I am a little put off when I hear some say that Christians shouldn't let their beliefs enter into their politics. This is complete nonsense and impossible. My entire worldview is informed by being a Christian. I can't think about anything (politics, art, literature, etc.) without viewing it through the lens of my relationship with Jesus Christ.

At the same time, I have become less and less willing to say what is the "Christian" position on various political issues, with a few exceptions. I think that Christians can confidently speak out against things such as slavery, apartheid, and poverty. However, there may be a variety of ways to approach these issues with varying pros and cons.

Once again, I very much appreciate the comments of my readers.

Will: This is a terrific

Will: This is a terrific post.

I wrote something which I feel is in much the same spirit, a seven-part series on how Christians might think about the 2008 election: http://markdaniels.blogspot.com/2007/02/how-christians-might-think-about-2008_10.html

Blessings,
Mark Daniels

Mark Daniels (not verified) | February 14, 2007 - 10:10pm

Thanks Will

Will,

I enjoyed reading it again.

Always nice to have the olive branch returned broken into bits, isn't it? Though I think you sent a mixed message with the following:

"I'm hoping that this post will do a bit to dispel some of the common misconceptions of the ‘Religious Right’. I'm tired of reading such misinformed crazy talk about the ‘Religious Right’".

I welcome any and all comments and dialog."

If you don't mind an edit, I would recommend the last sentence read:

"I welcome any and all comments and dialog--minus the crazy."

timothy | February 15, 2007 - 10:49am

From the other side...sort of

I worked for Planned Parenthood for two years as office staff. We cleaned up the glass some mornings when the office windows were shot out. We had bomb threats. We had to literally watch our backs when going home to make certain we weren't followed. The air conditioning system was sabotaged. For some reason some of the protestors thought I was a doctor and I was called a babykiller and when I crossed the street a protester screamed to the passing cars that they should run me over because I killed babies. These were bad things, of course. But one of worst was when they screamed at a couple coming in that they shouldn't do it, they shouldn't murder their baby. It wasn't a choice, it was a baby. Well, it wasn't a choice. Yes, they were there to get an abortion but they desperately didn't want to be there. The pregnancy was ectopic and there would never have been a live baby born and they possibly would never have been able to have children if they had tried to continue the pregnancy. The husband had to be restrained from going after the protesters.

Then of course there were the two teenagers perhaps like yourself in a way but they went over the edge. They had taken the pro-life position in a high school debate and became completely convinced of the rightness of the cause. They then proceeded to fire-bomb a Planned Parenthood clinic that had nothing to do with abortions. The only thing that ever happened at that clinic was pregnancy testing, birth control and health screenings.

Jim S (not verified) | February 15, 2007 - 9:27pm

wrong message or wrong tactics

"I realized that politics could not heal this world of evil. As a result, I swore off politics completely."

I also wondered about this quote, wishing you had expanded about how you decided this.

One thing about this is that if I thought God wanted me to do His work politically, I would. I think politics could work if people truly followed God's will in that. As neither Democrats or Republicans are doing that in my view, I do what I know to do myself. I volunteer at a charity to help people with a variety of needs. It won't end poverty. It won't end strife. It won't show people of average means or better how much suffering there is that is not the fault of people caught up by various things, where I couldn't do any better than they are were I in their place. It won't show anyone the real God, who in my view knows that there are circumstances where abortion is a good thing.

I tend to my relationship with God, and good things flow from that. I hope more good things are happening spiritually than what I can see, but even if they aren't, it is the best I can do. The world may get better so slowly because it is only little things God gives us, now and then. Yet when I look at those who are so sure that they know God's mind about abortion, sexuality, the right to die and the public expression of religion and sure God would have them fix those things this year, maybe that's the danger of trying to go too fast.

Actually I think it's more than that. I think Bible-believing Christians are going to have to admit the significance of the scientific revolution at some point, if not in the next 100 years, then maybe the next 500 years, that ancient visions of God were wrong, not in His existence, but in who and what God is. If Christian politics is wrong because of this error, then it's like Acts 5: 38-39.

If it's only a matter of tactics, that's different. Do you think it's just tactics?

DavidD (not verified) | February 16, 2007 - 12:50am

Rescue

Great, great post Will.

A short comment on the peaceful side (ie, the vast, vast majority) of Operation Rescue. If (if!) you believe that unborn children are indeed human beings, then those nonviolent protesters willing to go to jail to try to protect those lives are every bit as heroic -- more so -- than Rosa Parks. The crazies that committed the violence are not the fault of the movement. Do we blame Rev. Martin Luther King for Huey P. Newton?

Michael Dunaway | February 16, 2007 - 3:56pm

Thoughts for Will

Will

I found your entry to be moving and very sad. You seem like a kind man who's been burnt and/or used by some who lost sight of the fact that image-bearers of God are more valuable than a cause or issue. For that I'm really sorry; I'm sorry because I've done that in the past to others.
That said, does that mean we should shy away from speaking for what we know to be true? Do we shed our discernment because we've been wrong in the past? Bro, I couldn't help reading your story and concluding that it's made you a weaker voice for truth and justice. You have so little confidence that you can now only say with conviction that you oppose things like aparteid, poverty and slavery? Wow, that's really putting it all on the line for what you hold dear. So OK, you're also against Jerry Falwell and Randle Terry too. Big deal. I hope you're not impressed with that. They're both easy targets.
I'd like to know what you think of Reverend Jackson or Reverend Sharpton as you write about Dr. Falwell, partial birth abortion, the Gay Man Boy Love Association, reverse discrimination, whether we should go to war to stop the slavery you imply that you abhor in the Sudan, school vouchers for inner-city schools that are failing the poor and keeping them in poverty, what I should do when gay marriage finally becomes law and they demand to teach my kids how homosexuals have intercourse in their sex ed class, United Nations corruption and Burke's admonition about good men doing nothing. Will, this isn't politics to me, it's morality. Why you've chosen to not see things clearly, especially after what you've been through, amazes me.
Just because Solomon offered to split the baby doesn't mean we should take that option. The truth doesn't have to reside between liberals and conservatives. It simply resides where it's always been. We learn and speak truth, compromise when we can and remember that the issue doesn't trump the individual. We do it in season and out. I fear that somehow you've turned truth on it's head and concluded that instead of loving others, we should find a way for others to love and feel good about us and somehow call that Christian. There's no honor in that and it will surely leave the world in a worse place than we found it.

Georgia John (not verified) | February 20, 2007 - 5:53pm

Wow!! This old man salutes

Wow!!
This old man salutes you for your post. Growing up in a different time I grew up with the values you explained so well. It seems like the younger generation has somehow fallen for the lie that we can't know anything for sure. I'm sure Jesus had no doubts as they nailed him to that cross for us. Keep up the good work and I'm sure God's greeting to you will be "welcome good and faithful servant"

In Christ,
Jim

Jim Kahler (not verified) | April 18, 2007 - 9:46pm

Just a quick post to say my

Just a quick post to say my last post was about Georgia's post and not the main article.

Jim

Jim Kahler (not verified) | April 19, 2007 - 5:46pm

Jim: you have completely

Jim: you have completely misunderstood everything I wrote if you think that I believe "we can't know anything for sure".

That being said, one of your generation's greatest flaws, especially among Christians, is the obstinate clinging to cultural norms masquerading as true Christian doctrine. The generation of evangelical Christians older than me have shown an unfortunate lack of humility that has contributed to an even greater misunderstanding and caricature of Christianity in our culture.

Will Hinton | April 25, 2007 - 7:23am

jesus machine

Check out fresh air from NPR from today 3/5.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7713549

The show has an interview w/the author of a new book on James Dobson called "Jesus Machine".
http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Machine-Evangelical-America-Winning/dp/0312357907/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-7467911-0036605?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173152139&sr=8-1

It's an interesting discussion. My wife and I have gotten newsletters from Focus on the Family for years. I've been turned off as I've watched JDobson get more and more entwined w/the Republican party - so that it'd hard to tell where one starts and the other one ends.

A detail the author of the book does not mention in the interview is that Dobson now does less Focus on the Family and is more involved w/Focus on the Family Action - the polical body that's been spun off of FOTF. It's something Dobson went to great lengths to describe in newsletters - highlighting that donations to FOTF Action are not tax deductible b.c. Action does political advocacy.

Jim Keffer | March 5, 2007 - 10:41pm

Original post

Your statement "I am very interested in protecting the welfare of animals" intrigues me. I have rather extensive knowledge of farming and hunting processes. While I don't doubt the sincerity of many involved in the "animal rights movement", their ignorance of real facts has served to do damage to the very creatures they profess to want to protect. What do you mean by "protecting the welfare of animals?" Are you opposed to "farrowing crates?" "docking cows and pigs?" "dehorning cows?" "debeaking chickens or turkeys?" What about hunting and trapping? Are you opposed to those activities?
What is your philosophical/theological basis for your beliefs? What is our responsibility to "subdue the earth" (Gen. 1:28 NIV)? Does that include using common sense to protect the animal kingdom from themselves?

HoosierHills | April 14, 2007 - 9:42am

Your mea culpa sounds suspiciously like

sentiments from a conservative guy who got a girl pregnant. Just because you're turned off by political activity doesn't mean its a bad thing.

I will admit that a good number of Pro-Lifers are not all that bright as to the political reality. I used to be quite active in the pro-life movement, and it was often maddening. A.L.L. in particular makes no distinction between abortion and contraception. Regardless of the theology behind it (and I'm Catholic), that's a losing political position.

For what its worth, Operation Rescue did a lot of good. Through civil disobedience, it got the issue on the front page and in the living rooms of America. Randall Terry and Flip Benham were fundamental in making this happen. That some kooks joined in and did damage to the movement should not detract from the good that O.R. did. I have to say, that although I'm without mercy for Kopp and Rudolph and others like them -- they should rot in jail -- I shed about as many tears for Slepian as I did for Ted Bundy.

You're right about one thing -- the solution isn't political. Changing the makeup of the Supreme court won't end abortion, only a genuine rebirth of Christ in our hearts will open the eyes of the world.

But, just for fun, go watch Ken Burns' "Civil War" on PBS and ask yourself where you'd be during the slavery debate in 1860. You wouldn't tolerate it. Or would you? Why is abortion different?

andy (not verified) | August 3, 2007 - 2:01pm

Your mea culpa sounds suspiciously like

sentiments from a conservative guy who got a girl pregnant. Just because you're turned off by political activity doesn't mean its a bad thing.

I will admit that a good number of Pro-Lifers are not all that bright as to the political reality. I used to be quite active in the pro-life movement, and it was often maddening. A.L.L. in particular makes no distinction between abortion and contraception. Regardless of the theology (and I'm Catholic), that's a losing political position.

For what its worth, Operation Rescue did a lot of good. Through civil disobedience, it got the issue on the front page and in the living rooms of America. Randall Terry and Flip Benham were fundamental in making this happen. That some kooks joined in and did damage to the movement should not detract from the good that O.R. did. I have to say, that although I'm without mercy for Kopp and Rudolph and others like them -- they should rot in jail -- I shed about as many tears for Slepian as I did for Ted Bundy.

You're right about one thing -- the solution isn't political. Changing the makeup of the Supreme court won't end abortion, only a genuine rebirth of Christ in our hearts will open the eyes of the world.

But, just for fun, go watch Ken Burns' "Civil War" on PBS and ask yourself where you'd be during the slavery debate in 1860. You wouldn't tolerate it. Or would you? Why is abortion different?

andy (not verified) | August 3, 2007 - 2:03pm

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